愛華網(wǎng)近日《伊洛瓦底江新聞雜志》采訪了克欽獨(dú)立軍副總參謀長甘茂將軍，甘茂將軍就政府軍改革、和平進(jìn)程、中克關(guān)系、昂山素季、泰扎、密松大壩等闡述了立場。
記者：KIO和其他少數(shù)民族組織說，他們希望政府軍轉(zhuǎn)型為聯(lián)邦軍。你們打算怎么做？
甘茂：我們還沒有達(dá)到“怎么做”的階段。我們希望政府軍是一支由各族人組成的軍隊(duì)，因?yàn)槲覀兌忌钤谶@個(gè)國家。這就是我們要求成立聯(lián)邦軍的理由。但如何將目前的政府軍轉(zhuǎn)型，則是一件必須同各相關(guān)方討論的事。
政府軍的作用非常重要，我們也不能抹去它與緬甸獨(dú)立斗爭俱始的歷史。將來的聯(lián)邦政府軍將不同于現(xiàn)在的政府軍，但這并不意味著我們打算摧毀現(xiàn)有政府軍再用新的替代。關(guān)鍵的是我們?nèi)绾螌⑵滢D(zhuǎn)型以及我們?nèi)绾渭尤胨?/p>
記者：政府要求KIO交出人員清單和武器彈藥的詳細(xì)數(shù)據(jù)，還要求你們停止建設(shè)營房和招錄新兵。你們的答復(fù)是什么？
甘茂：政府必須依據(jù)政府和少數(shù)民族武裝組織必須共同遵守的行為規(guī)范。例如，如果政府要求少數(shù)民族武裝組織不得招募新兵，那么政府也必須創(chuàng)造無需招募新兵的條件。
我們不可能在戰(zhàn)斗持續(xù)和遭受壓迫的情況下停止招兵，而必須備戰(zhàn)。但若政府創(chuàng)造了有利于形勢改善的條件，那么我們自會(huì)盡自己的責(zé)任。
記者：中國深度參與和平進(jìn)程，特別是在涉及中緬邊界少數(shù)民族武裝組織的事項(xiàng)上。中國在KIO和緬甸政府之間扮演什么角色？
甘茂：克欽邦和克欽人民一直與中國保持有力聯(lián)系，因?yàn)榭藲J人跨居邊界兩側(cè)，而這是不可改變的事實(shí)。也存在把緬甸和中國聯(lián)系在一起的因素，如邊貿(mào)，因此他們是鄰居也不能分開。然而，北京同KIO的關(guān)系大大不同于與緬甸政府的關(guān)系，并不直接與KIO溝通或提供援助。但至今也沒有施壓KIO。
記者：中國不是施壓KIO同緬甸政府談判?；饐?？
甘茂：由于KIO和政府軍之間的沖突主要發(fā)生在中國邊界附近，因此?；饘χ袊睦媸侵匾?。在邊界我側(cè)發(fā)生的戰(zhàn)事也會(huì)在對方一側(cè)引發(fā)問題。因此中國要求KIO不要在這些地區(qū)交戰(zhàn)。但我們聽說他們也向政府提出了同樣的要求。所以，我不把它當(dāng)成是施壓。
記者：你怎樣看待今日緬甸的和平進(jìn)程？
甘茂：我們從積極方面來看待。以前雙方難以會(huì)面，而今經(jīng)常會(huì)面并建立了更深了解。政府和少數(shù)民族武裝組織已經(jīng)能夠交流各自立場，這是好兆頭。
記者：許多克欽人批評昂山素季女士。你或KIO如何評價(jià)她？
甘茂：克欽人民是在2011年6月軍事沖突再次爆發(fā)后開始批評昂山素季女士的。此前，全體克欽人民都是非常積極地評價(jià)她。他們深深地寄望于她，所以當(dāng)因?yàn)樗幍恼苇h(huán)境使得她不能如他們所愿地表達(dá)熱誠之時(shí)，人們感到非常失望。
KIO領(lǐng)導(dǎo)人們一直視昂山素季女士為一位有能力、能勝任的領(lǐng)袖。我們認(rèn)為，討論全國性事務(wù)時(shí)應(yīng)該請她參加。其他卓越人士也須邀請參加。國內(nèi)國際都有人認(rèn)為她能解決所有民族問題，但是我認(rèn)為少數(shù)民族不會(huì)將自己的命運(yùn)交付于她，而是會(huì)同她攜手并肩尋求解決。
記者：你怎樣看待吳泰扎在克欽邦經(jīng)濟(jì)中的地位？據(jù)說他在克欽邦獲得了大量用于采礦業(yè)和度假業(yè)的土地。
甘茂：我最近在仰光同他會(huì)面了，當(dāng)時(shí)我要求他提供有關(guān)在克欽邦進(jìn)行商業(yè)活動(dòng)的信息。他說他會(huì)的。等到了解了這些活動(dòng)對我們?nèi)嗣竦挠绊懀覀儠?huì)同他進(jìn)行討論。我們歡迎為人民貢獻(xiàn)福利的商人，但也坦率反對任何傷害人民利益的事。
據(jù)我們所知，泰扎目前在我們的土地上采礦（包括掘金和開挖小型銅礦）和伐木。我們聽說他在葡萄地區(qū)獲得了一片土地。我們向他了解情況，他說他會(huì)致力于保護(hù)當(dāng)?shù)丨h(huán)境。我們需要知道他是否會(huì)履行諾言。
記者：KIO對中國背景的密松大壩項(xiàng)目持什么立場？
甘茂：該項(xiàng)目第一次被報(bào)道時(shí)我們就給丹瑞大將和中國政府都寫了信，反對建設(shè)密松大壩。密松地區(qū)對本地人民具有歷史意義，而且也是整個(gè)國家的生命線。這就是我們反對的理由。我們?nèi)匀粓?jiān)持這個(gè)立場。
記者：有人指控吳登盛總統(tǒng)和緬甸和平中心（MPC）不是搞和平進(jìn)程而是搞利用少數(shù)民族組織的“和平買賣”。你怎么看？
甘茂：落實(shí)進(jìn)程的方式可能存在些問題，但我們并不同意他們的說法。有多個(gè)和解委員會(huì)參加了這個(gè)進(jìn)程，坦率地說，KIO認(rèn)為MPC是個(gè)實(shí)干的組織。
記者：你提到自緬甸獨(dú)立斗爭以來，政府軍就在緬甸發(fā)揮著核心作用。同時(shí)，它又被指責(zé)這些年來犯下無數(shù)踐踏人權(quán)的罪行。政府軍既是核心機(jī)構(gòu)又是不斷踐踏人權(quán)者，二者怎么能二位一體？
甘茂：從獨(dú)立斗爭到奈溫將軍的復(fù)興委員會(huì)奪取國家權(quán)力之前，政府軍中有克欽、克倫、克耶、欽、孟、若開和撣各族人。因此我們可以說歷史上政府軍曾是各族共同努力的產(chǎn)物。
然而，復(fù)興委員會(huì)掌權(quán)后非緬族族群的作用逐漸消失。此后，少數(shù)民族最高只能擔(dān)任中級軍官。將來，政府軍不能這樣。一旦改革，便能恢復(fù)其積極作用。
Toward a Federal Tatmadaw
ByTHEIRRAWADDY|Saturday, January 11, 2014 |
Over the past two and a half years, Myanmar has madeunprecedented progress toward ending its long history of civilconflict. During the same period, however, fighting has resumedbetween the government army, or Tatmadaw, and the armed wing of theKachin Independence Organization (KIO), demonstrating that apermanent peace is far from assured.
Recently, The Irrawaddy’s Lin Thant had a chance to speakto Maj-Gen Gun Maw, the deputy chief of the Kachin IndependenceArmy and a key negotiator in talks with the government andTatmadaw, about what the country’s ethnic armed groups hope toachieve in the ongoing peace process—including their vision of amore inclusive federal armed forces, which many see as central toending endemic armed conflict in Myanmar.
Question:The KIO and other ethnic groups say they want totransform the Tatmadaw into a federal army. How do you propose todo that?
Answer: Wehaven’t reached the “how” stage yet. What we want is a Tatmadawthat includes all nationalities, because we all live in thiscountry together. That’s why we are calling for a Federal UnionArmy. But how to transform the current Tatmadaw is something thatwe have to discuss with everyone concerned.
The roleof the Tatmadaw is very important and we can’t eradicate itshistory, which began with Myanmar’s independence struggle. Thestructure of the future federal Tatmadaw will be different fromthat of the existing one, but that doesn’t mean that we are goingto destroy it and replace it with something new. The main thing ishow we will transform and participate in it.
Q:The government has called on the KIO tosubmit a list of all its members, as well as figures detailing howmany weapons it has and how much ammunition. It also wants you tostop building new camps and recruiting new soldiers. What is yourresponse to this?
A: Itdepends on the code of conduct, which both the government and theethnic armed groups have to adhere to. For example, if thegovernment tells the ethnic armed groups not to recruit newsoldiers, it also has to create conditions under which they willnot need to do so.
It will beimpossible for us stop recruiting if fighting continues and we arestill under repression. We have to prepare for coming battles. Butif the government created conditions conducive to improving thesituation, we are ready to do our part.
Q:China has been very involved in thepeace process, especially in matters related to ethnic armed groupsbased along the Myanmar-China border. What role does China playbetween the KIO and the Myanmar government?
Q:What do you think of the peace processin Myanmar today?
A: KachinState and the Kachin people have always had strong ties with China,because there are Kachin people on both sides of the border, andthis is something that can’t be changed. There are also things thatbring Myanmar and China together, including border trade, so theycan’t be separated either, since they are neighbors. However,Beijing’s relationship with the KIO is very different from its tiesto the Myanmar government. It doesn’t communicate with or provideassistance to the KIO directly. Nor has it pressured the KIO, sofar.
Q:But didn’t China push the KIO to engagein ceasefire talks with the Myanmar government?
A: Aceasefire is important for China’s interests because clashesbetween the KIO and government troops mainly take place in borderareas adjacent to China. So whenever fighting breaks out on ourside of the border, it causes problems on their side. Consequently,China asked the KIO not to engage in battles in these areas. But wehave also heard that they made the same request to the government.So I don’t think we can consider such acts as pressure.
A: We seeit in a positive light. Before, it was difficult for both partiesto meet in person, but now we can meet often and build up greaterunderstanding. The government and ethnic armed groups have beenable to share their positions on each other, which is a goodsign.
Q:Many Kachin people have been criticalof Daw Aung San Suu Kyi. What is your opinion, or the KIO’sopinion, of her?
A: Kachinpeople started criticizing Daw Aung San Suu Kyi after armed clasheserupted again in our land in June 2011. Before that, all Kachinpeople spoke of her in very positive terms. They also put a greatdeal of hope in her, so when, because of the political situationshe was in, she didn’t show as much sympathy for them as they hadexpected, they were very disappointed.
Theleaders of the KIO have always regarded Daw Aung San Suu Kyi as acapable and competent leader. When we get to the point that westart talking about issues related to the whole nation, she needsto be included. Other prominent individuals have to be there aswell. Some people within the country and in the internationalcommunity seem to think that she will be able to resolve all ethnicissues, but I would say that the ethnic nationalities won’t entrusttheir fate to her. Instead, they will join hands with her infinding solutions.
Q:What do you think about U Tay Za’seconomic role in Kachin State, where he is said to have acquired alarge amount of land for businesses ranging from mining toresorts?
A: Irecently met him in Yangon, where I asked him to provideinformation about his business activities in Kachin State. He saidhe would. When we know more about how these activities will affectour people, we can discuss this with him. We welcome businesspeoplewho can contribute to the well-being of our people. But we have tospeak out against anything that hurts their interests.
As far aswe know, Tay Za is currently engaged in mining, including goldexcavation and small-scale copper minin[]g, and logging in our land.We’ve heard that he has acquired a lot of land in the Putao area.When we asked him about this, he said he will focus onenvironmental conservation there. So we need to know if he willkeep his word on this.
Q:What is the KIO’s position on theChinese-backed Myitsone Dam project, which the government suspendedin September 2011?
A: Wewrote an official letter to both Snr-Gen Than Shwe and the Chinesegovernment rejecting the construction of the Myitsone Dam after theproject was first reported. The Myitsone area is historicallyimportant for local people, and is also the lifeline of the wholecountry. That’s why we opposed it. We still hold thatposition.
Q:Some have accused President U TheinSein and the Myanmar Peace Center (MPC) of engaging not in a peaceprocess but in a “peace business” that seeks to exploit ethnicgroups. What are your thoughts on this?
A: Theremay be problems with the way the process is being implemented, butwe don’t interpret these problems in the way that you described.There are several peace-making committees involved in this process,but to be frank, from the KIO’s point of view, the MPC is the bodythat is really working.
Q:You’ve noted that the Tatmadaw hasplayed a central role in Myanmar since the days of the country’sindependence struggle. At the same time, it has been accused ofcommitting countless human rights violations over the years. Howcan these two—the Tatmadaw as a central institution, and theTatmadaw as a serial violator of human rights—bereconciled?
A: Fromthe time of the independence struggle until state power was seizedby Gen Ne Win’s Revolutionary Council, there were Kachin, Kayin,Kayah, Chin, Mon, Rakhine and Shan people in the Tatmadaw. So wecan say that historically, the Tatmadaw was a product of theefforts of all ethnic nationalities.
However,the role of non-Burman ethnic groups gradually declined after theRevolutionary Council took over. After this, members of ethnicminorities couldn’t even reach the level of mid-ranking officers.In the future, the Tatmadaw shouldn’t be like this. If it isreformed, its positive role can be restored.
This storywas first published in the January 2014 print edition of TheIrrawaddy magazine.
